Episode 7: Student Voices: Measuring Success with Daneel Konnar
In this episode of Inside The Mayo Lab, we invite a student voice to the discussion. Between family, school and comparing themselves with peers, young people often encounter confusion and anxiety in attempting to measure what “success” looks like. David talks with college student Daneel Konnar, who shares keen insight on being aware of that struggle within oneself, the ways young people make choices based on flawed thinking, and better ways to measure success.
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David Magee: I am David Magee, and this is The Mayo Lab Podcast. An important part of the discussions we have on The Mayo Lab Podcast is including student voices. I think that too often, we as parents, we as educators, we tend to want to tell students what they should think, how they should feel, what they should do and a part of this podcast is including student voices so we can just ask them how do they feel and what do they want? So today we're excited to welcome a young man I have known for several years now. He's a student at the University of Mississippi, a junior from Meridian, Daneel Konnar. Welcome.
Daneel Konnar: Thank you Mr. Magee.
Magee: Yeah, thank you so much. So I remember one of the earlier times we met, I had come to your fraternity house. You're a member of Phi Delta Theta, which has a chapter, a very large and historically strong chapter here at the University of Mississippi. And I spoke about well-being in general will say, which included mental health, substance misuse. I remember you meeting me near the door and saying, "This matters." And you told me a little bit about yourself, about your family, about your journey to college, and that really captivated me. Tell me a little bit about your story?
Konnar: Sure. And so being from Meridian, not many students come to Meridian. It's more of a pipeline to other schools around the area, whether it's a junior college or other schools that maybe closer to home, as we like to say it. And so coming to Ole Miss was a big transition, I would say. As a son of two immigrants, my mom and dad are both from Malaysia, so the country between Thailand and Singapore. It felt different in a way. Mom and dad came to here for school, so he understood the university system and how it all worked. But keep in mind, that was in the late eighties, early nineties so the times have changed. And so coming to school here, didn't know many people. When I moved in I remember feeling the sense of being of bit lost at times. You didn't have many friends up here. You were trying to find that group essentially. And of course with the background with mom and dad, they're business owners now, but when mom and dad first came to America, all they had were $200 in their pocket.
Magee: Wow.
Konnar: And they said, we're going to take this $200 and make into something hopefully that will become successful. And so that work ethic of hard work and being devoted to whatever you do carried with me into college, especially when trying to get involved or trying to find a community especially was so important. And I guess now that that carries into the conversation that we're going to have today too.
Magee: Yeah. So I guess you have some of that work ethic because as I've known you, you have been involved in so many things across the campus that I can barely keep up with them, which is both a compliment. But I would also ask you, do you feel at times that you need to prove yourself or is that just you enjoy doing it so much? What's at the background of your involvement?
Konnar: For me personally it's more of an enjoyment. It comes out of having this, in a sense a fulfillment of knowing that I'm helping others. Because growing up my entire life, mom and dad always wanted to help other people because they receive so much help. And so in some type of way, mom and dad instilled this value upon us of whatever you're blessed with, try to bless others with it too.
Magee: Wow.
Konnar: And so coming into college in a way I saw... I mean this is not just involvement, but whether it's through academics as well too, whether it's helping my peers with their homework or just working together or even with involvement, what we're talking about now, I felt that I saw it as a way to help others transition into college, and especially elder students who were juniors and seniors at the time when I was a freshman, when I was in that position as a freshman, very vulnerable I guess you could say, they helped show what ways you can be successful and meet other people for what I did not have at the time. And so in some type of way now as a junior I see the involvement as number one being an enjoyment, but also as a way to give back to others who may not have necessarily had the resources to step right in when they came into college.
Magee: So because you have that involvement, it's given you a broad base experience with students of all backgrounds. I've heard you talk about before how some of the involvement... You've got involvement with a lot of other international students and others from just a variety of backgrounds. So it's not just, for example, a fraternity. All of the student body that involvement has gotten you to engage with. So in that, for so many of us we're trying to figure out where students are today. And the data shows that students are dealing in general collectively, not just at this University of Mississippi, not just at another university, but everywhere. The data shows that teens and college students are facing really more uncertainty, more anxiety than ever before. As you engage across students widely, do you see that? Do you think that that's something that is real?
Konnar: Off the bat I would say yes, it is something that we are having to deal with because the stress of having to deal with school, having to deal with trying to find a job or an internship, there's so many different things that are piled up upon you, not just your academics, but also with your family life back home as well too, worrying about what's going on. And so when you add the involvement aspect, whether it's the Greek life or if you're talking about different registered student organizations here on campus, you're adding more weight to the plate in a way. And at some point you have to ask yourself, where does the plate break? And I think that's one thing that we are struggling with is essentially finding a good boundary. How do we stop ourselves, ask ourselves, okay, this is enough, or I need help. That's something that we're facing now as students, is not just trying to go out there and get what we want, but in a way, how do we realize that we need to stop too at some point?
Magee: The expectations have changed so much. I think that you talk about your parents coming in here with $200 and starting to find their way in America, which is a beautiful story, by the way. But I hear a lot of young people tell me today, even if they're thriving, they'd like, I don't know how I'm going to, I worry that I can't make the money my parents make or they do feel some pressure to where do I go in my generation to best what this generation has done because we've come out of an era of halves where certainly half the country still may not feel that, but for a whole lot of families it has been pretty bountiful economically and there's a generation of college students I hear often saying, "Where do we go from here?"
Konnar: Right. And I think the problem is right now is that the measure to success is loss in some type of way. So how do we measure success? Because now when we look at other generations, we're like, okay, do we use wealth as a tool to success or do we look at what have we done to help others as a tool to success? In some type of way we are so lost in the clouds just to understanding what really is success, whether it's our mental health, whether it is our ability to help others, we don't have an answer. And what it seems like is that the generations before us said like, oh, these are the things to measuring success, whether it's your wealth, what you have, how big your family is, things of that nature.
But with our generation and the world that we live in with social media, let's be honest, the rule is, or not the rule, but the norm is you wake up and you look at your phone. So the first thing is you're comparing yourself to what others are doing when you wake up and already your brain is wired early in the morning to see what others are doing. And so when you see them being successful and you're not doing that same thing, you kind of lose that sense of yourself and not knowing what success truly is. Just even from a simple thing as looking at your phone early in the morning,
Magee: Wow. The how, you stopped me in and really made me think when you said how, how we're doing, because our generation, in my generation, it was about what are you going to be? What are you to do? And my generation cannot help but thrust that against upon your generation, what are you going to be? But really I think we as a community, we as parents, we as educators, may need to stop and reframe that. You've brought just great light on that. How are you doing? How will you feel? How will you be? Not what will you be? This definition that is defined by the job you have in the economics you deliver.
Konnar: Right. And I think it's kind of like a tunnel vision. It's just that we are told to look at the light at the end of the tunnel, which is in everything in life in some type of way we want to see what's at the end, but what tools on that journey to the end of that tunnel are we going to be provided in some type of way? And so like you said, Mr. Magee, your generation was what will you be or what will you become? But what we need to ask ourselves is what are we going to give you to get there at this point. In some type of way it's like a pressure is what it feels like, is that pressure's been put upon the students now to say like, okay, we want you to be this, but sometimes there's not that support. And that's unfortunately with a lot of our generations that we're feeling that burden of wanting to be successful but not knowing how to be successful and that can be for a lot of students.
Magee: Because we place upon you beginning from the day you start schools, our system and our culture places upon you the demand for excellence, which I'm a competitor, I'm a big believer in, I know Alexis is the same way. She's a competitor as well. Played sports, always striving to excel, but in that culture comes if we do not build into that culture tools for wellbeing, that if we do not also teach you about yourself, how to manage your feelings, how maybe your peers may be feeling and how all of that works together, then demanding this success and demanding just excellence in and of itself where we're not also teaching a culture of really reaching for excellence and wellbeing, then what you can find is people like my son William, perhaps they can achieve, but are they really struggling inside?
Konnar: And I think because growing up, especially as you all may know, we were always the kids who get into our, once school is done, get into the back of mom or dad's SUV, boom, it's now going to soccer practice or baseball practice or something. So life was always on the go. There was never seemed to be a moment where it just slowed down. And that essentially in a way carried into college or into high school, which eventually after you got off, when the class last bell rang, you're going to sports practice, you get home, it's time to do homework.
Then that carries into college. You finish your classes. Okay, what organizational meeting are you going to go to? So wherever is that time where you're having time to just sit down and think to yourself, okay, am I okay? Am I doing well? Are my friends doing okay? Are they doing well? Because constantly growing up we were on the go. Mom and dad just wanted us to keep going in some type of way and we never put the foot to the break and said, wait, let's slow down and check on ourselves while we're doing all this at the same time.
Lee: Being so busy as you are now and talking about making sure the plate doesn't break, how have you implemented tools? What tools do you use to set those boundaries or to make sure that weight is continuing to be equally distributed?
Konnar: Well, sometimes I feel like it's hard to say no, but sometimes we simply do have to ask when something is being asked of us or if we know we cannot handle it we have to sometimes just say no. And I think that's hard for us now. A lot of us in our generation we feel like we have to always constantly be doing something as a sense of fulfillment. If we are not, we feel like we are letting ourselves down, we're letting our family down.
But if we just learn to say no, essentially to make sure that we are okay, and if we can give ourselves the time that we deserve in some type of way, we're able to sit back and reflect and say, okay, I actually do have time for myself, but I have to learn how to put a boundary to the time that my body deserves, my mind deserves. But unfortunately, I think that's a problem we're facing now, it's just recognizing that we're not able to say no to a lot of things. And that's not just me. I feel like a lot of students, and some people can say no easily, but just really depends, I feel like.
Magee: I think, Daneel, culturally among young people, teens and college students, I see what you just explained more than anything else. We have programmed you, and I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that my generation has done that to your generation. We have programmed you to where there's just no, you're just always in this continual drive for excellence and what I encounter is I encounter, for example, a lot of college students throughout the country when I'm out and about and get to engage with them and start asking them what they experience, I find that their anxiety goes up in their free time often.
They actually don't know how to just be. We have between that device, that smartphone that you picked up a minute ago that I saw and using that as an example between this go-go culture of excellence and then the addition of this device that you are using, I find your generation, we have put you in a position where there's almost an anxiety in the calm, in the quiet, what do I do with that? And really students often don't know what to do with it.
Konnar: It's just like we because we were so, like you said, programmed in a way to always be on the go and if you're just sitting around not doing anything, you're looked down upon in some type of way. And so that's a problem. We have to recognize that sometimes we have to take that step back and sit down and realize that we have to give our bodies time and to readjust to just rest. And unfortunately though, it's just that we were programmed, like you said, from that young age, that being on the go is the key to being successful or always putting in that hard work, which is no matter what an aspect of life, but hard work cannot be abused. It cannot be used as the tool to saying that, oh, this is what it takes to be successful.
Magee: And sometimes hard work comes through meditation. I was a middle-aged professional version of that, and I kept running on that hamster wheel, chasing this thing, and until I finally crashed and burned and when I crashed and burned I literally needed the world to stop and I took my smartphone and threw it out of the window. Somebody did find it and try to give it back to me, and I was like, you don't understand, I do not want that. Keep it. And they did keep it. They're like, "If you could just unplug that, then I'll go sell it." I was like, fine, do it.
Konnar: It worked out for you then.
Magee: It worked great, and I deleted email accounts and I made myself go away when I crashed. And guess what happened? I began to think and I began to heal, and I began to process and it changed my life. And I often worry that young people miss that meditation, that miss that probably the best ideas I have come on a quiet walk by myself with nobody near, and I don't want to rob your generation of that, but there's a degree of that that's happened. So how do we reverse that? Is that getting into schools in an earlier age to begin to teach that, is it, where do we start?
Konnar: The saying, it all starts from home. I think it truly does. In some type of way it's parents support saying that, okay, here we're going to help you with the tools to success, but in some type of way, let's also check in on you and making sure that you are okay. As parents or as guardians, as family members, let's not only provide you with these tools, but let's also check in with you at the same time to say, "Okay, how are things going?" We always ask the question, "Oh, how are you doing?" And naturally we say, "Oh, I'm fine. Thanks for asking." But are we actually checking in with ourselves when we ask that?
Are we actually thinking to ourselves for a split of a second saying, no, I'm not okay actually. And it's knowing how to have that conversation when someone is not doing well, or if you feel that your mental state or your ability to do something is not at its peak, how do you go about resolving that? And I know there's no clear cut, copy and paste answer to that, but it's through the simple conversations with family, through those that you look up to or those that you're willing to support is giving that community of support and just saying, I'm here to help you, but let's also make sure that you are checking in with yourself all while I'm here to stand behind you and support you along the way.
Magee: That is the parent's favorite line. How was practice? How was school? I pick up sometimes, I'm fortunate to be a young grandfather, and I got to pick up my grandson, and I found myself when I got that opportunity, my first question to him was, how was school? How was it? And what I expect him to say is, fine. It was fine, it was great. And then he didn't quite answer that, and it threw me. I was like, well, what went on? And it was a fine day, but he didn't, what he didn't like is he didn't like me asking that question, but we do. How was play practice? How was school? And the standard answer is fine because I think that we've pre-programmed young people to, that they're going to throw us if they go, "Actually, I'm not doing so well."
Konnar: Right. And in some type of way, I guess it just goes back to earlier generations saying, I'm tough. I can handle this situation. I got this all under control. And so that was emitted upon us growing up in some type of way that, oh, let's push everything else to the side. I got this. I'm a tough person. Let me handle this by myself. But instead, we didn't say, yes, you're a tough person, but I'm also here to help you along the way if you need some help too, whether it's a guardian, a parent, sibling, somebody who may know what's going on. Instead, we were like, let's do this all by ourselves and not ask for help. Because in some type of way, it's been seen as a weakness when we ask upon help and we must change that narrative, that asking for help is a sign of strength and your willingness to step out of line and ask for help to make yourself a better person and hopefully improve your health.
Lee: I laughed David, because I used to be that way, and my parents would say, "How are you? How was practice?" I'm fine. And I remember my mom looked at me one day and said, "You're not allowed to say that anymore. Let's use a different word." But it started different conversations of you can't use fine. So maybe just throw the word fine out, throw the word okay out. Whatever word people are consistently using, say it's not an answer anymore.
Konnar: Because if we asked ourselves, what does fine mean essentially?
Lee: Right.
Magee: Right.
Konnar: It's a very vague term to say, "I'm fine. I'm okay." So already we don't know what fine and okay mean in the sense of our wellbeing so why don't we go a little bit deeper into the conversation and ask ourselves, ask our family members, ask our kids, our students. Say, no, how are you actually doing? And that alone, I promise you, in some type of way, when someone takes that initiative to just go an extra mile and saying, "How are you actually doing?" You'll be surprised to see how many people may open up and say, this is actually how I'm doing. And then hopefully as a response, someone is willing to give the advice or help to ensure that somebody gets the help that they need.
Magee: How did you feel on that stage today when you were there? How did that feel when you were out on that stage? That open-ended question we like to talk about here, and that is so important for parents to begin that conversation. Exactly Alexis, what your mother was trying to cut off wisely. Yeah, fine. Fine is, in many ways it's a close ended answer in every, because we don't know what that means. And in many terms, it often means let's just end this conversation now.
Lee: I was like, I don't want to talk about this any further. I'm fine.
Magee: Yeah. Yeah, this is over. I'm done. So it's not all bad news though Daneel. I give props to you, and one reason we invited you on this podcast is that we have seen and watched you as a college student make discussion of wellbeing a priority and in it does seem that not just you and others, that your generation is beginning to get it. Maybe we're making some progress where perhaps while it's not enough progress there are beginning to be some better conversation among peers of teens and college students about the importance of mental health and wellbeing and maybe acknowledging where they are or where they are not.
Konnar: Right. And I still have to say that we do have a long way to go with this conversation, especially amongst my generation. Yes, the conversation has started and that's a starting point, but we must, that narrative has to change in some type of way. It used to be seen as this taboo, mental health is a taboo. And now with our generation, the problem is one problem that I'm seeing now or that I personally believe is a problem is that we just throw the terms mental health and mental wellness out. Well, what does that actually also mean?
We can't just say, oh, let's check in on your mental health and your wellness. What does that actually mean? So I think that as time goes and progresses, I think we'll see a shift. We're seeing that with this generation a bit, that are currently in college. Still not much of a conversation that we want to see, but at least it's being thrown out there to hopefully put something out there and for the next generation of kids coming behind, whether it's our kids, our grandkids, we at least hopefully know that this is a conversation that can be sparked, it can be talked about, can be checked in upon and not just seen as, oh, let's just throw it to the back of our heads and take care of it ourselves.
Magee: Right. Yeah, the general word I've seen is where there's been both progress, but as you mentioned it's only a beginning. What I find is your generation, particularly, I think in young men, the safe word to acknowledge I'm dealing with something among parents and students themselves is anxiety. I didn't see 10 years ago anybody owning anxiety so it's progress, but I find that it's often the word that is used to encompass everything, and that's probably perhaps from a lack of understanding of the other things involved, but it's also safe. I think people now feel safe identifying with anxiety, for example. As I say, I see it anecdotally more often in young men and in parents of young men, he battles anxiety or, which is real and anxiety is very real. I have battled plenty myself and my children certainly battled plenty themselves, but it's the progress and it's now the all encompassing safe word. So it's like, as you say, where do we go from there?
Konnar: Yeah. And that's the thing it's just, it's knowing how to have these conversations. I think that if we just tell people that, okay, this is a topic that needs to be talked about amongst our close family members, our friends, and of course like anxiety especially, that like you said, Mr. Magee, that the term anxiety is just thrown out there, like you mentioned. And that's a problem in some type of way because if we just keep using that term to yes, it is an issue that a lot of students-
Magee: Sure it's very real for some, that's right.
Konnar: But what really is causing that anxiety? Is it something that's going on at home? Is it something that we're struggling with personally? How do we go about talking about these things as something that's so important?
Magee: Yeah, because often there's more stigma around depression, and there's more stigma around substance misuse. I'll have a student say to me I'm not about to go tell you or anybody else I am addicted to marijuana and alcohol and Xanax because I've got a scarlet letter on my chest. I can tell you I'm anxious because that's fine. And certainly they are anxious, but I think that's a lot of what we've got to get past and look, even for me as a middle-aged man, the truth is I'm still barely comfortable using the word depression myself. It's not something I battled in recent years whatsoever, but when I was in high school, when I was in college, and when I was early in my married life, I battled it all, sometimes weekly, sometimes daily, to a debilitating level, but I was trying to hide it and pretend it wasn't there. It's not even particularly easy to admit that now today, so I get it where young people, they don't want that label.
Konnar: Right and unfortunately that is a true thing. What you just said there is seen as a scarlet letter to your name is that if you're battling this, for some people they believe that this is, again, it's that taboo that is seen as a taboo by some. But as time progresses, as time changes, as generations, as we continue to grow and understand the topic of mental health and mental wellness, I believe that will change. And it's just if we have these conversations more often, if we talk about how it's a real thing and not just something that's made up in our minds, if we can just talk to our kids, our students, and say that what you're struggling with, I understand. I get it. It's a real thing. Just recognizing that it's a real thing will hopefully change the narrative to let students and the generations as they come up, understand that these are things that we all as humans struggle with. And it's okay, but we must also get the help that we need to ensure that we can recover from it or overcome it.
Magee: Yeah. Daneel Konnar, a junior at the University of Mississippi, it's all about starting a new conversation, and we appreciate your role in helping us understand where young people are today. Thank you so much.
Konnar: Thank you, Mr. Magee.
Lee: The Mayo Lab Podcast is produced by Dr. Natasha Jeter, Dr. Meagen Rosenthal, David Magee, Alexis Lee and Slade Lewis. This podcast was recorded at Broadcast Studio in Oxford, Mississippi. The show was mixed and mastered by Clay Jones, and our original music was composed by Slade Lewis. The Mayo Lab podcast is brought to you by The William Magee Institute for Student Wellbeing. For more information on The Mayo Lab, head over to the mayolab.com and follow us on social media at The Mayo Lab. If you enjoyed listening to The Mayo Lab Podcast with David Magee, we need your help. Tell others about it, and we'd love for you to subscribe, rate, and give us a review on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you are listening to this podcast. This podcast represents the opinions of David Magee and guests of the show. This podcast is not intended to be a substitute for the medical advice of a licensed counselor or physician. The listeners should consult with their mental health professional in any matters relating to his or her health, or the health of a child.
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