Entrepreneur & Recovery Champion Zac Clark: How Students, Families Find Recovery

Feb 28

Zac Clark, founder and CEO of Release Recovery, is recognizable to many from his appearance in season 16 of The Bachelorette. On that show, he opened up about his sobriety, which came after struggling with drug addiction. Outside of that, Zac has been more than just open; he’s taken action to help others as a recovery and mental health advocate—including cofounding Release Recovery, an addiction recovery program in Westchester, New York, in 2017. After 11 years in behavioral healthcare, Zac thought he’d seen it all—until he embarked on a recent college tour. He found, as David would say, that “things have changed.” College students are desperate for connection and resources and to know that they aren’t alone.

In this episode of The Mayo Lab Podcast, David and Zac talk about how the tour inspired Zac in his work not just with students suffering from addiction but with their families. By involving families in the recovery process, Zac finds more success in helping students find the joy they want and deserve.

“My lived experience is that getting sober is not really about what I’m giving up. It’s about what I’m gaining, what I’m taking back.” - Zac Clark

Zac Clark is founder and CEO of Release Recovery, an addiction and mental health recovery program centered around Westchester, New York. A South Jersey native and current New Yorker, Zac is recognized nationally for his advocacy around mental health and addiction recovery. He's also well-known for his celebrated appearance on season 16 of The Bachelorette. In addition to his leadership of Release Recovery, Zac is the founding board member of Release Recovery Foundation, a nonprofit working to make residential treatment accessible for all. So far, the foundation has raised more than $1 million, helped over 35 individuals receive treatment and created scholarships for the LGBTQ+ community, minorities, college students and women. Learn more about Zac and his work: https://releaserecovery.com/our-story/.

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David Magee: Welcome to The Mayo Lab Podcast. I'm David Magee, and with me is Alexis Lee.
Lee: Happy to be here.
Magee: All right, Alexis. Over the past year, I've been in schools all over the country really, and schools have invited me in to talk about substance misuse and mental health. But a crazy thing has happened, they invite me in to talk to the students, but soon it's the parents asking questions. It's the parents who are saying, "Things have changed so much. How do I help my children navigate this mental health substance misuse crisis?" And that's how The Mayo Lab evolved. That's why we're here. And I'm thankful to have you along for this journey.
When we were launching The Mayo Lab at the University of Mississippi, which was really focused on delivering content like this for parents and education in schools, for students, for navigating mental health and substance misuse issues, I said, "Hey, look, if we're going to do this, I need one thing. I need the help of Alexis Lee." And I'm so glad you're going to be on this journey with us.
Lee: It's been such a incredible journey so far. And I think what we're trying to do is take the silos of information that exist in the ecosystem and bring them to one place. This is something that's never been done before. And why can't it be us? Why can't we be the first to do it? And so I think the passion and the mission behind making this accessible for parents is at the heart of what we're doing.
Magee: Why not us? That's a great point. What I've heard from parents, it doesn't matter whether I'm in Texas or New Jersey or North Carolina, they say, "We need a place that we can all come together, that these issues can be discussed and the range of sleep to social media, to stronger marijuana, to counterfeit pills. We need a place that we can bring all of this together that we can tune into to really begin this journey and learn how to help our students." What's interesting, I think it would help the audience know a little bit more about you, what Alexis, as we embark on this journey, tell me a little bit about what's your story and what calls you to this type of work in messaging?
Lee: So for the most of my life I've been an athlete and I played volleyball in college here at Ole Miss, I graduated in 2019. And most of my life, I was taught, in all my life as an athlete, you're taught how to run drills. You're taught the best form to work out in, so you don't hurt yourself. You're taught how to fuel your body, but you're really not taught how to have mental health conversations. You're not taught how to take care of the mental side of the game other than being mentally strong.
And so I came to college in the year 2016. It kind of all accumulated for me and I had a best friend that passed away, and then I had a career ending injury that happened.
And I remember the very moment that I realized what was going on, and I just had a really hard last year. I had misused alcohol. I didn't want to get out of bed some days. It was hard. And I remember the conversation I had to have with my parents to tell them that my career was over, and they looked at me so lovingly and said, "It's going to be okay. There's so much more for you, and volleyball doesn't define you." And it makes me emotional today to talk about it, but it was in that moment that I realized that I could learn how to be mentally strong and mentally health conscious and how to take precautions in that way.
So I spent the next, ever since 2016, learning about mental health, how to take care of myself, how to share that wisdom with others. And that's really why I'm here, I love to have conversations to give others tools to be people that they want to be and live the life they deserve.
Magee: Oh, so setting the stage, The Mayo Lab Podcast is a production of the William Magee Institute for Student Wellbeing at the University of Mississippi. And that institute, of course is named after my late son, William, who died of an accidental drug overdose shortly after graduation from college. He'd been an honors college student, he'd been a track athlete in college and in high school and excelled in so many ways, but he suffered from substance use disorder and a lot of anxiety and depression that he self-medicated. And ultimately, I found him dead.
But what I tell everybody is, don't feel sorry for us because we had another son who suffered from substance use disorder and is now, after treatment, successful in 10, 11 years of recovery, I've had my own journey. We've had a daughter who's turned her life around through a battle with eating disorder. And it's much like what you're talking about, Alexis facing the challenges, but realizing it's either going to break you if you let it, but we can break the stigma and people can take that first step of young people can be able to share, "Hey, I'm struggling." And we can see them and hear them, we've had a lot better chance of getting them into help.
And it's much like what you're talking about, Alexis. When you're feeling that way, it's either going to break you or if we can help people learn, young people, students, teens learn how to take that first step by breaking the stigma that often help is just a little fingertip away. It's teaching them how to reach out for that. And it's just like what you did telling your parents, which is what our daughter did with us, she finally understood enough to say, "Hey, what I'm facing is real and I need some help." And The Mayo Lab podcast is a part of The Thomas Hayes Mayo Lab b within the University of Mississippi.
And I must say, at the beginning, as we launch episode one, Thomas Mayo is a young man who I knew and knew well, and he died of an accidental drug overdose just less than a year ago. And he had come and sat with me on my porch when he decided to get help. He was much like my son, William. He was shy and suffered a little bit of anxiety and he self-medicated. And he got in over his head with substances. And he'd come to me asking for some tips when he was a junior in college and we had decided sitting together on a porch, he's like, "I need to go get help. I want to be better." And he took that step and he did go get help.
And the thing about recovery is it's not always just this straight line up, I wish it was, but it involves humans and it involves the disease, and it's often more complicated than that. Often it's an up and down road for many. And what's happened is it's become so much more punitive because, before, we had fentanyl, maybe somebody relapsed and they felt bad about it, but they could still have breath and get back up on their feet the next day and take that next step and continue their journey. In this era of fentanyl where things have changed so much, what happened to Thomas Mayo who was a junior at the University of Mississippi, he relapsed and unfortunately he gets a counterfeit pill that has fentanyl in it and it takes his life. And so the Thomas Hayes Mayo Lab results, and it lies within the William Magee Institute at the University of Mississippi. And it's our storytelling arm that brings you this podcast and the work we do in schools. And so it's exciting, Alexis, to get this podcast started. And episode one, we've got a fantastic guest lined up.
Lee: Yeah. So Zac Clark, many of you probably know him from ABC's The Bachelorette, where he publicly addressed his sobriety on national television, which I don't think in the history of that show has that ever been done before, so props to him for doing that. He used this platform then to raise awareness about important mental health and addiction issues and I just know that this conversation is going to be an inspiration to so many.
Magee: I can't wait, Alexis. Let's get this conversation started on The Mayo Lab podcast.
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So Alexis, we have this big idea. We're going to launch The Mayo Lab Podcast and it's going to go where no podcast has gone, we dreamed. It's going to create content for parents and educators, really delving into how do we help students find and keep the joy they want and deserve. So we have this big idea and we are going to scour the world for the perfect guest. And in our mind, we're going to bring all these people together and just go through this full checklist and when we finally arrive on the one perfect guest, out of all that criteria, we'll bring them on to the very first episode, except it turned out to be pretty easy, right?
Lee: Honestly, the easiest decision we've made, there was just one person.
Magee: We end up with one. It's Zac Clark. Welcome to The Mayo Lab Podcast.
Clark: I've done a few of these things and that might be the nicest introduction I've ever gotten. So let's party, let's party. I love that.
Magee: Hey, I kid you not Zac, that that's not even buttering you up. I mean, I'd find some other things to say, but we're going to scour the country and we have this checklist and Zac, we're really thinking it should be somebody in recovery. We think it's even best if they do some work around recovery, and maybe they're also trying to get to know college students or teens. And guess what? You do all of those. So first of all, let me ask you, Zac, I think the thing that clenched it, why were no other contestants for the first guest on this podcast, why it was just you, last year, you go out and do this college tour at several college communities throughout the country. Let's start there. What were you thinking and why do you go do that?
Zac Clark: Yeah, the college tour was really... I don't know, that was the brainchild... I just remember early last year I was kind of sitting around, look, I've been working in behavioral healthcare for 11 years now, I feel like I've seen it all. And we continue to see obviously the suicide numbers and the overdose numbers just skyrocket. And I continue to bang the drum and scream at anyone that'll listen to me. And last year I found myself sitting there, the news had just broke around Katie Meyer, who was a player on the Stanford Women's Soccer team taking her own life, which was just devastating. And then there were a couple more that followed her. And I said to myself, "I was screwed up in college, but I never got there." And I was a college athlete and I need to know what's going on. We need to find out what's going on with these kids on college campuses.
So we threw it together pretty quickly. And really the spirit of that trip was we wanted to do research, we wanted to connect, we wanted to talk to the people who were on the front lines. And what we found coming out of that is kind of what we knew. These college aged students are desperate for connection, they're desperate for resources to go where you can speak to someone who's been where you've been before, and they're desperate to know that they're not alone. So it was a crazy trip. Basically, we hit six colleges and six days, and I was tired at the end, but I was inspired.
Magee: Yeah. I think that the line we often use when people are suffering from mental health issues, substance misuse, eating disorder, depression, they need to be seen and they need to be heard. And I feel like sometimes, I mean, I did it as a parent, so many students I get to engage with, I see the same thing happens, they're not seen and heard, and we spend a lot of time as adults telling them how they should feel, what they should do. I'm just so appreciative of you recognizing... Because it all starts in a conversation, as we know, but you got to get out among them, you have to be with them.
Clark: I'm sitting here laughing because I'm a total jock, I played three sports growing up.
Magee: Okay. What three? What three?
Clark: Football, basketball, baseball.
Magee: Okay. All right, go ahead.
Clark: And I love the coach that would get in my face and say, "You suck." For some reason that resonated with me, "You need to do this." And I loved that concrete in your face feedback. And when I started doing this work 11 years ago, I took that same approach. We're going to work harder, we're going to hustle, we're going to be gritty. And I'd have guys and girls looking at me like, "Yo, I don't know who you are, but you need to calm down." And 11 years later, I have found that in dealing with folks who... And in the work I do with parents this is one of the main things I talk to them about is, we all know the answer you're trying to get to, but if you tell your child what to do, it's a lot less likely for them to do it than if you're going to ask them questions and allow them to have agency over the decision that they come to. And it's really hard for parents.
And in my work at Release Recovery where we work with a lot of families, we kind of take on the role of the parents because we are their caretakers now. And I work with my team all the time around, ask questions, make sure they feel heard, make sure they feel validated. We can still say no, but it needs to be no with love and no with a smile, and no with letting them understand that we just have your best interest in mind. It's really hard. The communication thing for me in this work has been one of the toughest things to learn. And now that I have it, I try to give it away.
Magee: No, right. So you founded Release Recovery in 2017. Tell us a little bit about... What's the focus of it? I mean, there's a lot of treatment centers in the country. You're doing some special work you just noted around the family. I mean, talk to us a little about that.
Clark: Yeah, so I got sober August of 2011. I was heroin addict, smoking crack cocaine, really what was in it at the end of my run. And I had a family that never gave up. I mean, it got wild for a minute. My parents weren't necessarily talking. My brother wanted to beat my ass. All the stuff that comes with active substance use disorder. And I went to treatment for four and a half months, and I came out, I moved into a sober living. So I was kind of in the container for about seven and a half months. And I came out of that experience knowing two things, I fucking love people, excuse my language, I love people.
Magee: Speak the truth, that's all right.
Clark: I love people. I caught this bug, this recovery bug, and I love business. I love projects. So I worked for another guy for about five years when I first moved to New York City and then as it goes, for someone like myself, I made the decision to go out on my own. And in 2017, we started Release Recovery, which it's a tough elevator pitch, but essentially we're a full service recovery organization focusing on mental health and substance use disorder. So we have 65 highly structured beds throughout New York City and Westchester County and then we also do a lot of high touch, high level intervention work, consultation work, work with families. And so we're really working with families at all stages of the recovery process. So before their child is in treatment, when they're in treatment, when they come to us after treatment, and then we hope to have them become ambassadors and fly our flag and be a part of our community. So it's been wild, it's been wild. And I'm just so blessed to be able to do what I do. I don't feel like I ever work, honestly.
Magee: So I liked your honesty earlier. That's the thing about you that I've heard is you're you, and that's I think what people like the most and that's I think why you can make a dent in this tough old world with this work. So I'll be transparent with you and say, when I first learned about you a couple of years ago, people were telling me about the good work you did. And what I recalled is look, I mean, you really burst on the scene, I guess in 2020 when you received the final rose on ABC's the Bachelorette. And I think what was interesting in that, Zac, is you used that platform to address your sobriety on national television, which was a pretty big deal. But even then I'm like, "What's really going on with him?" And a friend that we have in New York, a mutual friend, told me, they said, "Let me tell you what, Zac is the real deal. And he used that as a platform to launch into all this kind of dog with a bone passion."
Clark: Yeah, I mean, look, that experience was wild. Being on national television, I acknowledge and can lead into the fact that a lot of people know who I am because of that experience and the love and the romance aside, I'll share this story with you guys. It was kind of the day of filming when I knew I was going to get real about my story, and I knew that that was going to happen, one way or another.
And I remember the producers kind of talking me through it, and I kind of had to stop them and say, "Guys, you don't understand. This is just who I am. So just like you talk to people about your life, I'm going to do the same thing and I need to lean into that because I don't know who's going to see this. And I need to lean in it into that for myself because this is my truth." And what has come back to me from that experience and people kind of seeing me out in the world continuing to share my story, is a lot of love, a lot of hope, and a lot of people saying, "What do we next?"
And I think as it relates to family members and the work I do today, one of my big goals in life is to kind of break down the stigma around mental health and substance use disorder. And so what I've tried to do is really show people that this life is not a punishment. Because when I sit a young guy down or a young girl down and they're 15, 30, 3 months sober, and I'm sure you had this experience with your son, "Well, how do I date?" "How am I going to go to the football game?" "How am I going to do this?" And a lot of that shit's fueled by the parents because of their perception of what they want their child to be, and it keeps families sick. So what I've tried to do with all that is really show people that, my life is, I wouldn't trade it for anyone else. And I don't think about drugs and alcohol today.
Magee: The parents, they mean well. I meant well as a parent, and because we want so much for our children. But it's interesting, I tell people all the time, "Look," they say, "I'm sure it's hard to get teenagers and college students into substance treatment." I go, "Oh my gosh, it's like a knife fight in the street." And I go, "Once you get the parents out of the way, then you got a fighting chance." I mean, I got messages coming in today, a parent... I mean, they want to believe anything, but they struggle. That's why I think it's so important that people like you... I was in a school in Jackson, Mississippi just last week, and I had a classroom and I asked them, I'm like, "What makes the biggest difference? Help us understand." And they said, "Storytelling. It's storytelling. When we can hear others share what they went through." So for you, Zac, I mean you talked earlier about being an athlete and you were an athlete in college. I mean, this wasn't just a high school thing, but your addiction, was it ongoing then? When did it really start for you?
Clark: Yeah, there's a lot out there. Is it genetic? Can you catch an addiction? And for me, I think the first time I took a sip of beer, I knew that I loved it. I didn't have this white light experience because I wasn't a super awkward or whatever kid. I drank the beer and I was like, "This is awesome." And so as that progressed I showed up on college campus and I kind of felt like I had a black belt in drinking and a black belt and partying because I had partied my whole way through high school. So I really wore it as a badge of honor that not only am I going to carry on the way that I want to carry on, but I'm going to bring a bunch of people with me. And it's one of the biggest regrets I have in life is in college.
And look man, the leading cause of death on a college campus right now is suicide. There are people overdosing left and right and none of that information was out there 10, 15, 16, 18 years, whenever I was in college. You work hard, you played hard. And so I think I knew deep down inside that I had an unhealthy relationship with drugs and alcohol.
I'll never forget the first time I ever did cocaine. I was a junior in college and I woke up the next morning and the first thing I thought about is how upset my mom and dad would be if they knew. And that guilt, that just guilt. But I went back out the next night and did it. So as much love is important and all that stuff. I think for a family listening, yeah, you can mean well, you can love your child. You can do everything that you think is right. There's no playbook. And I had a beautiful family. I had a beautiful home. I partied my ass off in college because that's what I wanted to do and that's what made me feel good. But the college campus has changed, there's no doubt about it since I've been there.
Magee: Look, I tell people, Zac, and my son, William, I mean he ran track, was in the honors college, graduated and went into treatment and unfortunately he died of an accidental overdose. But I have another son who nearly died on a college campus and he woke up from a coma from an accidental overdose and he's now 10, 11 years sober. And then we had a daughter who battled an eating disorder in college and she's now in recovery. And I say, I mean, just as you said, the hope is real, but however things have changed and it's different even, you're a lot younger than me, but what I faced and then what you faced where they are today, particularly around counterfeit pills and counterfeit pills with fentanyl. I mean the stakes have changed so much.
Clark: Had fentanyl been around when I was using drugs, I wouldn't be here. That's just a fact of my existence. I was using IV Heroin, I was in Camden, New Jersey. I wasn't checking anything. I was just trying to get the next one in me, and I don't know what we need to do, and going back to language and communication, I don't think yelling and screaming and telling people they have to learn about fentanyl, they have to speak up and share their experiences is going to be helpful. But I do know that guys like me and you and what you're doing down there with the center you've opened and the things that we try to do, and this thing shoulder to shoulder is going to be a hundred percent necessary because if we're at a hundred thousand deaths now and 75, 80% of them are opiates, and then probably another 80% of that number is fentanyl, it's really scary to see where we're going.
We had a case up here in Westchester about three weeks ago where a kid was in a high school class and hit their vape and whatever they had bought was laced with fentanyl and they overdosed right there in the class. And the teacher had the NARCAN and the kid made it, but people think-
Magee: It's this close.
Clark: Yeah, and they think it's bullshit. And you've lived it. And I read your book, man, and that stuff was inspiring, just to-
Magee: Thank you.
Clark: And the authentic authenticity and realness that you wrote, and you laid it on the line, man, I want to be just like you when I grow up.
Magee: Hey, okay, now you're giving me a compliment. But you know what, I appreciate that, and it used to be, and you will appreciate this, there was a time when I was early in recovery that I would almost be so embarrassed by that, that I couldn't accept that compliment. But I think that I have to accept it and wear it because it takes a village, and I appreciate that.
The thing about you is when that mutual friend we have in New York was telling me about you, they were on fire. They were like, "You got to get together with Zac Clark." So I look at this as a, it's going to take a village to do this. The work you do in New York and nationally, the work we do in Mississippi, in the Southeast and nationally, I think the more of us that care so much particularly about that student beating heart and really reaching... We've got to come together and try to get at the round table, so to speak, so that students across this country have real advocates putting their minds and energies together to help them find a way out of this.
Clark: Yeah, I mean think the landscape unfortunately is shifting. It sounds like with your two sons, and congrats to-
Magee: Yeah, thank you.
Clark: ... your son on 11 years. That's awesome, 10, 11 years. I think the landscape has changed recently, unfortunately, which is it's not just people that are affected by substance use disorder that are dying. It's people on college campuses that are trying drugs for the first time. They're showing up in Mississippi from Westport, Connecticut. And they're going out to their first party and someone's putting a powder in front of them and they're saying, "I know my mom and dad will be mad. I know I don't want to do this, but I just want to fit in, so I'm going to do this line of cocaine," or whatever it is and that's how we're losing folks. So the problem is only getting worse, and I don't know, you would know better than me, but the thought of sending a kid to college right now has got to be terrifying. I mean, it just has to be.
Magee: Well, statistically, I've seen some research that students arrive on a college campus anywhere in a country, often they will try a new substance, Zac, within the first three weeks for just what you said. They're out of their element, people use substances to change how they feel. They're uncomfortable, they want to fit in, they're uncomfortable and so they're often likely to make an alignment.
And the deal is though, if we're recognizing that we got to get upstream where we're having more of an impact, where they can really develop that needed emotional intelligence in middle school and high school, so perhaps they come out of high school more fully understanding who they are and what they face and I think then we can reduce those odds.
Right now, to be honest, it is a knife fight in the street because they don't fully understand what they're against, and frankly, I don't think their parents even really understand what they face when you take in everything in the full spectrum that impacts them, social media, there's sleep-deprived, there's counterfeit pills, marijuana's three to 400% stronger. There's so much. There's a cliche that sticks around that's called a perfect storm, it honestly is that.
Clark: Yeah, it's scary. There's no other way to put it. And it's hard for the parents. And honestly, I think it causes a lot of parents to look at their own behaviors. I mean, I lead a family group every other week for over here at Release, and I always tell the parents, "Look, there's no playbook on this thing. Your kid is your drug." And there's actually a study, I was talking to a colleague this morning, going on at Texas Tech around the way that our brains react.
And so if you take the addict or the identified patient and you show them a picture of drugs, their brain, the dopamine, they're going to light up in a certain way. And then if you take the parent and you show them a picture of their child, their brain is going to light up the same way that their child's does when you show them a picture of the drugs. And there's just not enough out there for the families right now. And because they're not the ones utilizing the drugs, they're like, "Well, I don't have the problem. Just send my kid away. I'm going to spend a boatload of money and someone else is going to fix them."
Magee: Hi, I'm David Magee. Now more than ever before, parents need better information about the challenges facing their children, what sorts of issues to expect and when, and the warning signs to look for. From anxiety and depression to addiction, eating disorder and loneliness, students and their families are facing a mental health and substance misuse epidemic that requires new guidance. My new book, Things Have Changed: What Every Parent (and Educator) Should Know About the Student Mental Health and Substance Misuse Crisis, offers a clear roadmap for helping students find the joy they want and deserve. Head over to themayolab.com to sign up for our newsletter and find a link to pre-order my new book. And everyone who signs up for our newsletter and pre-orders a copy of Things Have Changed will receive a digital copy of my expanded student toolbox, visit themayolab.com today.
Lee: You are listening to The Mayo Lab Podcast with David Magee. Now, back to the episode.
Magee: The impact, to be honest, and as you noted in my book, I tell people, I've had some folks say, "You're not to blame." I said, "No, I'm not to blame. However, there is no denying that when I was regularly reaching for drinks at five o'clock on and my children who adored me saw that it had impact, just as my son today who's 10, 11 years sober, tells me being able to look at a sober person has impact on him the same way." To blame, no. But as you note, really being able to look in the mirror as a family, as parents to think, what are we doing here? Are we obsessed by changing how we feel with substances? And if we are, it's unreasonable to expect that our children will adopt any different behavior.
Clark: Well, I mean, the thing I think about when you're talking, David, is the fact that you are a successful male doing the work that you're doing is just so inspiring. Because 90% of the time, the moms will show up, the moms will put in the work, but the dads don't want to talk about it. The dads don't want to be honest about what they've been doing. The stuff that you've shared in that book, man, and the work you've done in your own relationships and your own recovery, I mean, it's next level. And you could go out and have a business dinner with an acquaintance, they're not going to know you're sober. And then they find out after the fact, they're like, "Holy shit, maybe I could-"
Magee: Maybe I can do it.
Clark: Yeah, maybe I can do it. And that's my big... Right now, what I'm trying to do, and it sounds so cheesy, but make this thing look cool. Make it look cool.
Magee: I think it's working. What we got to do is... That's so interesting you say that because, Alexis, I'm sitting here talking to Zac, and it almost sounds like a joke that I'm going to say this because he's been on national television, multiple episodes, but I still think he is making it look cool, and we got to help him pull the accordion to get across America. Not that he needs that help, but it's so needed, I think, to get that message in front of students from the person they can relate to.
Lee: Oh yeah, Zac, you posted a photo on Instagram a while ago and it said, "Sober, not bored." And I was like, "Yeah, let's talk about that." You don't have to sit in your dorm room, you don't have to not go to the party. You don't have to not go to dinner. You can do these things. You can still have fun. And I was a college athlete also, and I remember thinking, "Well, these are my two choices is go out or be alone." And it's like, "No, let's talk about it." There's third, fourth, fifth option you can tow.
Clark: Yeah, that's one of the beautiful things that has come from the college tour is we were able to make some connections on college campuses with students that are choosing not to drink and do drugs and are choosing to prioritize their mental and physical health, and they are starting to make impact. And then even here at Release, we've helped to launch a lot of men and women back to college. And then having them come back and share with us about their college experience has just been, it's been incredible. And it's like my lived experience is that getting sober is not really about what I'm giving up, it's about what I'm gaining. It's about what I'm taking back. And I can share that, this past weekend I was at a wedding and it was pretty uptown. It was a New York City wedding. I knew this, because I knew a lot of people in the room, 50% of the people there are sober. I know what brought all those people together.
Now, if you look at a picture of this thing online, you're thinking, these people are partying, they're having the time of their lives. Holy shit, how come I didn't get an invite? It looks like a pretty awesome time. But I know the truth behind that picture. I know the truth behind all that is that half those people wouldn't be there if they didn't find recovery. And it's a fine line, man, because a 19-year-old kid telling him that he's got to get sober in the middle of his college experience, I don't want to do that. I don't want to deprive them of that time in their life that you look forward to so much as a young kid. But there's got to be a way to inspire these college students to have a good time without blacking out every night.
Magee: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I ask students... That's such a great point. So many students I get to engage with who are really struggling with substances, I'll eventually ask them, "Hey, but let me just ask you, are you having fun?" And they'll all stop and look at me, I've never yet had one say, "Oh yeah, I'm having fun." They're all like, "No, no." So let me ask you, Zac, I love the fact that you're a Philadelphia Eagles fan, and you're pretty hardcore, let's be honest. And this is a season of Super Bowls and all that. So-
Clark: I need a program for my sports addiction. People think I'm a nut. I put-
Magee: You're at Sixers and the Eagles, and you love it, man.
Clark: You have no idea. My whole life... I have Eagles and Sixers season tickets, and I don't live in Philadelphia. That'll just tell you the level of-
Magee: That'll speak it right there. Yeah.
Clark: Yeah.
Magee: Okay. So the NFL for example, a lot of that tailgating culture is built around alcohol. I mean, I'm just curious is how do you do that?
Clark: I love this question, man. I love it, because, again, and I might be coloring outside the lines on this one, and there are probably a lot of people in this world that disagree with me, but my answer to that question is, how do I tailgate? How do I go to bars? Just like anyone else. And there is a movement to create sober events, and I understand that, I get that. And there are some folks out there who are just going to feel more comfortable walking into an event that is sober. That said, for me, what I try to coach the young men and women that I work with, or even the C-suite executive that I'm talking to about sobriety is that you can live the exact same life that you had previously. So you can go play golf, you can go out to the tailgate, you can go to the concert, you can do all these things sober, so long as you put your recovery first and you really do the work.
And so for me, I do the same shit I did when I was drinking. I get down to the stadium early, I meet up with friends, I eat good food, we laugh. I might have a cigar, whatever it is. I go to the game, win, lose, whatever, get home. The difference is on Monday morning, I feel great and I remember everything that happened. So I do, I have a big desire to show people who are working towards recovery that you can still run in some of the same circles. And now obviously look, you have a friend that is doing a bunch of drugs, you're probably not going to want to be hanging out with them. But there is a life that is a available and exists where we can be out there doing the same stuff that we were doing before so long as the work is getting done. And that's the hard part. That's the hard part.
Magee: That might be the best answer I've heard, and I do a fair amount... I'm like you, I get in a lot of recovery circles. I think particularly for college students, Alexis, Zac, that's what keeps them so often, they're so afraid of going to treatment or they're so afraid of putting a scarlet letter because they're afraid that it will separate them from everybody else, that it will separate them from the fun. I think, Zac, you have just spoken a truth. And like you said, for some people they just need sober only events. But students will tell me, for example, "I don't really want to go to the sober tailgate, I want to go to a tailgate and I don't want to drink, but I'm not sure I want to go stand under a flag that's a label for me."
And it's different for everybody, but you have spoken a truth there that I think in this movement of how do we reach students in high schools and colleges where they are, I think it has to start with that. They not only can be on the so-called cool side, they might be... My son Hudson, for example, he's cooler than he ever was. He's fly-fishing. He's so full of joy. I mean, he was pretending trying to be cool, I think in college, but he wasn't. I heard him saying-
I heard him say at a panel once, and I want to hear what you're going to say, I heard him saying a panel once, he said, "When I would walk to a class, Zac, when I was a sophomore," he was a sophomore, he said, "When I would walk to class, I thought all the students liked me because they were all nodding at me and smiling, 'Hey man.' I only realized in sobriety that they were all nodding at me because I'd been selling them weed."
Clark: Mm-hmm, right. And what kind of legacy is that? That's not going to be eulogized, "He was an amazing pot dealer."
Magee: Right.
Clark: But I just, one of the first things that people want to know when they get sober is, how do I date? How do I date? No girl, no guy's going to like me if I don't drink. How am I going to get married if I'm not able to have a glass of champagne? And that's a legitimate concern for the families too. The parents, I mean, you wouldn't believe how much stock, because they think about how other families are viewing them. And I say, and this is my lived experience, if I've been on a thousand dates in my 11 years sober, and I'm just using numbers, maybe one or two of those women were like, "I just can't... If you're not going to drink this isn't going to work out." 95% of them are like, "This is intriguing. This is amazing. Maybe I should look at the way I..." and they end up liking you more.
What do they say? I mean, it's again, cheesy, but your vibe attracts your tribe. I came to the realization that I don't want to meet my wife at a bar at 2:00 AM on a Saturday night. I want to meet my wife at nine o'clock in the morning in a yoga class. It's a shift in thinking. It's a pivot, not just for the people that are struggling, but for the families too. Families are so ashamed. They're so ashamed. "My kids in treatment, what am I going to tell my friends? What am I going to tell the people at the church? What am I going to tell the people at work?" You don't have to tell them anything, it's not your story. Your child will dictate that, or whatever it is.
Magee: And when it's time, you're going to find that you're surrounded by all your friends and neighbors who've been battling the very same thing, they were just trying to keep it a secret like you.
Clark: Yeah. So what about for, you mean do you find yourself... I mean, you're living your life the same way you always did or I mean-
Magee: That's a great question. Now I am. At first, Zac, it was uncomfortable for me. And at first I didn't know how to go to a party, and people, I think... Well, people tell me they think I'm social, so that's what they think. I hear that a lot. But I didn't feel very social because I had been trained in my mind since I was 14 years old that if you went to a party, you went with your brain a little bit numbed. So it is a learning process because I agree with you, I desperately wanted my life and I wanted a better life than I had before. So I realized that I had to learn and take some steps. So I'll answer it like, I wanted it, and now I have it. I go anywhere I want to go, and I think I'm more social than I was because when I see you, I'll look at you eyeball to eyeball and I'll hear everything you say and I'll feel everything you feel.
But it took me... It's like yoga, the first time you go, it's pulling on muscles that are a little uncomfortable but you're learning how to sit into that a little bit, or going to the gym, or running. For me, it was muscle therapy, I had to get stronger in it. And I'm stronger today than I was five years ago and so forth and so on and I think I'll be stronger in five years. There's a big concert coming in our community in the spring, and to be honest, there's going to be a lot of alcohol, a lot of other things, but it's a bigger concert than we've had here. And my wife's like, "Do you want to go?" Five years ago I would have said no. But I'm going, I'm going.
So there's my answer. I agree with you. That's why I loved your answer so much. That applies to me. I think that applies so much to students because the students I talk to, they really don't want the life they're living. They are absolutely scared to death to get there because they don't want to be alone. The night my William died of an accidental drug overdose, I could see his messages and everything, and he was starting to really do well in recovery, but he was alone. He'd gotten off work and a friend said, "Hey, you want to go out?" He just didn't know how to do it. But the aloneness is what drove the unfortunate result.
Clark: Yeah, I mean, they say the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. You see that a lot. And I believe there's a lot of pathways to recovery, and this has nothing to do with how I personally stay sober. But if you look at something like AA, AA has been around since the 1930s and there's a lot of opinions around AA and 12-step recovery in general, but what I've seen in my work is that AA teaches people who are new to this process a lot about what we don't know how to do. It teaches you to show up early, stay late, sit in the front, get phone numbers, connect to people, say yes. And these are all things that were really hard for me to do when I was out there. I wasn't on time for anything. I didn't have any real meaningful connection.
And when you're telling your story right there, about William, man, and I remember reading it, it touches me on a level that didn't exist when I was getting high. It just didn't exist. And so the human connection is just so important, and it's taught me I don't need to like everyone, everyone I meet is not going to be my best friend, but I got to love everyone because I have no idea what's going on at their home in their life. And that's what I try to live by, that's what I try to live by.
Magee: So this family recovery meeting, first of all, congratulations on your... I love that you're not just involved on making things happen, you're involved in the actual happening. So is this a 12-step based program? I'm just curious. Or is it more conversational? What happens in that dynamic of that meeting?
Clark: I'm laughing because both my coach and my therapist, if they heard what you just said about you're involved in the Happiness... I don't know how I find the time for it all, but I do because at the end of the day, I care so deeply. If I had it my way, I'd be in it with the clients and the families every day.
I mean, look, we pulled a lot of what we do from 12-step recovery. We also subscribe to the idea that there are multiple pathways to recovery. There's a lot of different ways that someone can get to the finish line, and we try to present our families and their loved ones with options. I mean, for family members, when I meet with them, obviously we suggest general family support groups. We suggest Al-Anon, we suggest that they have their own therapist that they can talk to. We suggest that they make friends and connections with other families who are going through it. So we try to just utilize our experience from both the professional and personal life doing it and help them see that it truly is a family illness.
And I know for a fact... So if this podcast is really geared towards families and the people listening right now are parents, then the thing that I think that I would say that really hit me between the eyes is when I started doing the family group about six months ago as an effort to get more involved with our families, I did it a couple weeks and then I got home one night and I was sitting in my bed and I was like, "Why the hell is all the response I'm getting so positive? Every family on this call is so grateful, and so, 'Thank you for Release, and thank you for my case manager and thank you for this.'" And I'm like, "I know the numbers aren't this good. I know the numbers, we're not this good. I love to think we do a good job, but we're not this good."
And so I pulled up our client list, and then I pulled up the families who were in attendance, and I started matching them up. And I started to realize the families that were showing up and doing the work had children that were also showing up and doing the work and the families that weren't on the call, that weren't doing the work, those were the kids or spouses or whatever it was that were struggling. So there's a direct correlation between-
Magee: Absolutely.
Clark: ... when the family chooses to dig in and do the work and the outcome for the identified patient. And so for a family member, it might not feel like there's anything that you need to work on. I get it, you're perfect. And now that your kid is away, you're going to be fine. But the truth is, now's the time to even work harder. And that doesn't always sit well with the families, but it's the truth.
Magee: It is the truth. And I appreciated your... Again, I can't agree anymore than what you just said in that statement. Number one, I love the fact that you're bringing what I'll call a collection of best practices, you're kind of curating in how this family meeting happens. What I find, two things, I have two things, and then I got a question for you. One, I find that some students, I'm going to be very careful, I want to be very careful how I say this because AA, for example, has saved not just some lives, but tens of thousands and millions of lives and is one of the most important entities around the world, and it will continue to be. I hear from a lot of students, this isn't me speaking, I hear from a lot of students who tell me that some aspects of that model feel a little dated for them.
And so what I take for that is it's amazing and it works, but what we have to realize, both in the student model and in the family model, we may have to look at the connections, as you say. That's been the core of AA. We know that works, and it's the same thing that we have to help these students find. When they're connected with their family, they get better outcomes. When they're connected with peers who support them, they get better outcomes. And that's what I've really tried to help students that I've been engaged with is try not to obsess over the name of this thing or that, maybe just try to get the principle of it. And I think that's the essence of a lot of what you're doing around Release, and that's fantastic. So then in 2019, you've got Release Recovery growing, expanding how it serves individuals and families, and then you open the Release Recovery Foundation. Tell us a little bit about what the foundation is about and what's the aim of it?
Clark: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I love what you just said. And I think what I've come to realize is I'm not God. I'm just not God. As much as I love to think I am, I'm not going to get anyone drunk, and I'm not going to get anyone sober. I'm just not. I mean, that's just the truth of my existence. So why not give people options and share my personal experience where I think it can be valuable? So the foundation, yeah, the timing was crazy. So in 2019, I've been doing this work in and around New York City for seven or eight years, and naturally, for whatever reason, I fell into a world where I was really providing services and helping the middle upper class, the people that could really afford a high-end service. And there was something tugging at me to say, "You got to cast a wider net here. You got to help the people that really can't afford it."
And so we got the 501 late December of 2019, and then of course in March of 2020, COVID hit. So it's our first event's canceled, and what are we even doing? And you know how life goes, you keep showing up. You keep saying, "Yes, I get this phone call, I go on television, and I come off of that experience. And there's this wave of people who want to help. There's this wave of people that say, "My brother, my sister, sister, my aunt, my daughter, how do we donate?" And so we happened to have this 501, and we started raising money to really be Robin Hood, pay for people to get treatment that truly can't afford it.
And so we really focus on building community. Our two pillars are obviously raising funds so people can access care, and then the other one is building community and making sobriety look sexy and look attractive to the people that need it. And it's been unbelievable. I mean, last year we had a hundred people run the New York City Marathon with our name on their chest, and we raised almost a million dollars.
Magee: Whoa.
Clark: Yeah, it was really cool. We're having our first gala in New York City in May, which you guys will get an invite to.
Magee: Alexis, I think we need to get there.
Lee: Yeah.
Clark: Yeah, yeah. And we've also focused on, so there was really two... We have a DEI fund with a treatment center down in Maryland, which focuses on providing funds to the Black and Brown community because they are historically underserved. When I showed up in treatment, if I'm just being blunt, I was a white dude amongst a bunch of other white dudes, and 80% of that campus were white men, and I saw it. And then the other group of people is the LGBTQIA+ community, again, just historically underserved. So we have two funds that really focuses on helping individuals that identify in those groups. And then we will do one-off scholarships. I just approved one this morning for someone to get some sober living up in Connecticut, so it's beautiful work. It's beautiful work. Yeah.
Magee: Listen, when you're talking about underserved individuals, I tell people, I say, "Look, I've been fortunate to get in a lot of treatment centers around the country. I've been able to get in schools and places to see what kind of services are available. And certainly on college campuses, there's equitable services. Here at the University of Mississippi where I'm based, we have the William Magee Center named after my late son, for example." But you just said an important point. If you travel this country and look at treatment centers, this disease is quite equitable. It knows no boundaries. It impacts every human potentially walking this earth. It knows no boundaries. The treatment that's available across this country, now there is a different story. I get in there and I see a whole lot of faces that look like mine and yours. I love that you are really taking the next step of how do we begin to... Because it feels to me, Zac, like there's a lot of growth opportunity for that very same thing because I know a lot of others besides us feel that same way.
Clark: Yeah, the treatment world has changed, and I'm going to make some assumptions on you and say that you're probably a pretty decent businessman. You've probably seen the way that the field of mental health and substance use treatment has changed over the past 10 years. There's a lot of private equity money coming in. There's a lot of people getting involved that don't know how to spell addiction. And that has really motivated me and my peers to get out in front of this thing as young leaders in this world because we're going to really carry the torch into the next generation of treatment providers. And there's a way to do this that's right, and ethical and above board, and there's a way to do this that's really grimy and dirty and gross.
And that's another thing for families. The call that I get, the one that I get that I want to get from a family is the day zero call. I want to get that family who knows nothing about this thing so that I can help guide them, not the family that's been Googling treatment centers for the last 90 days because they're probably just filled up with so much garbage and really confused and really scared.
So I agree with you. I mean, we have a duty to serve and to continue to try to break down walls and barriers in this work because they say, what, "From Park Bench to Park Ave," is something they say in New York City. It's going to affect everyone in between. And that's my story, man. I'm one of five. I grew up in a beautiful home in South Jersey. I never wanted for anything, and I ended up bottoming out in Camden, New Jersey with a needle in my arm. So who's to say it can't happen to anyone?
Magee: Right. Zac Clark, what an amazing story. The thing I love about a Forum like The Mayo Lab Podcast is this is a beginning. This has been so incredible to hear your story, to hear the work you're doing at the Release Recovery Foundation, and in other areas. But I think it's a beginning and we look forward to hosting you on the University of Mississippi campus and seeing where we can dig in and find some synergy to all dig in and try to find solutions for students and families.
Clark: No, yeah, my mind's already running, David. I see a world where we're on stage somewhere and you're telling the story from a father's perspective, and I'm telling the story from a son's perspective and whatever it is, because I know that's where the juice is. I mean, the best doctors in the world haven't been able to "figure this thing out". If there was a pill, I would've made it and I would've been flying down there to see you guys on my private jet today, because I would've monetize it. But there's not a pill.
Magee: There's not a pill.
Clark: Shoulder to shoulder, brother, we get to keep doing this. And I'm just so grateful to you. And to be the first guest, no one else will ever be able to say that.
Magee: Yeah, you've made it as the last one standing before. This isn't the first time, but around this subject, on this thing you out of everybody in the country, and I'm so glad we made the right choice and we look forward to seeing everywhere this goes from here. Zac Clark, thank you so much.
Clark: Thank you guys.
Lee: Thank you for joining us on this episode of The Mayo Lab Podcast. The Mayo Lab Podcast is produced by Dr. Natasha Jeter, Dr. Megan Rosenthal, David Magee, Alexis Lee, and Slade Lewis. This podcast was recorded at Broadcast Studio in Oxford, Mississippi. The show was mixed and mastered by Clay Jones, and our original music was composed by Slade Lewis.
The Mayo Lab podcast is brought to you by the William Magee Institute for Student Wellbeing. For more information on The Mayo Lab, head over to t themayolab.com and follow us on social media @theMayoLab. If you enjoyed listening to The Mayo Lab Podcast with David Magee, we need your help. Tell others about it, and we'd love for you to subscribe, rate, and give us a review on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you are listening to this podcast.
This podcast represents the opinions of David Magee and guests of the show. This podcast is not intended to be a substitute for the medical advice of a licensed counselor or physician. The listener should consult with their mental health professional in any matters relating to his or her health, or the health of a child.